One of the comments in a previous post on this blog said that I should check out some different material on shikantaza because..."it seems you're having a really hard time trying to be a better person. Perhaps you're trying too hard?"
This is an interesting point. I am having a really hard time trying to be a better person. But you know what? There are very few things in life that get done when you're not trying hard.
Name me an important, significant achievement or event in your life that occurred without any struggle or hard work. How many people get done climbing Everest and say there was no struggle and it was easy? How many filmmakers, basketball players, builders, whatever...finish a project or a game and say, "didn't have to work hard at all..."
Not many. Life is difficult. Change is difficult.
Most things in life take hard work and discipline if they're worth a fart in the wind.
I don't see meditation as any different. Now, as far as "being a better person," I thought about it and my teacher Steve never has said a damn word about it. He never told me, "you really out to try and be nicer, better, less angry, etc." I came up with it on my own. I'm the one who talks about my anger, my this and my that and trying to do better. All he mostly says is to breathe and relax and if you go away from that awareness, be thankful when you come back. That's pretty much the gist of his teaching.
But I'm okay with my attempts at being a nicer person. I've come up with it because it matters to me, because I feel better and enjoy my life more when I am less angry, when I am kinder, when I kiss my wife instead of make a snarky comment to her.
Has my practice helped in this area? Undoubtedly. Over the years I've made huge changes, many of which i feel have come directly from insights gained doing this practice, from the lessons I've learned about my mind and body. Sure, I've used therapeutic techniques and other tools as well--but my meditation has been very important the last 10 years. And the last 10 years are certainly when I've grown into a happier person with a life that i finally enjoy.
My first 25-28 years were pretty much miserable, and that coincides directly with the time I WASN'T doing any meditation work.
So although to a person who casually reads my blog or maybe even to a close friend, it may appear that I work hard for very little return, I know that this hard work does indeed pay off. And you can try and fool yourself about "having no goal" or not working so hard, but in my view, you get out of it what you put into it. Period.
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I say if it's working for you then carry on. Never mind whether it conforms with someone else's spiritual doctrines.
I find the over-emphasis of some Soto commentators of 'not (or pretending not) having any motivations' to be unrealistic and nonsensical.
In my experience what is key is not 'no effort' but 'Right Effort' (hey wait a minute, that sounds familiar...). Buddhist practice isn't about feeling blissful or going with the flow. It means facing up to stuff and to yourself. It means practicing whether you feel like it or not, pushing yourself when it's hard or boring.
It also means non trying too hard in the sense that actual practice is about 'being' rather than 'doing' or trying to attain something. It's a kind of paradox and a kind of balancing act at the same time.
Keep up the good work. I enjoy reading about your efforts and experiences.
Or to put it another way it means putting in the work without judging the outcome - instead simply observing the outcome.
Thanks Shonin.
I appreciate the sentiments and glad the blog is enjoyable for you.
This post is clearly defensive, Gniz (not a bad thing in my book). But it's my fault for following up the links I gave with the "...you're having a hard time..." comment. I hoped it wouldn't sound smug or condescending. What was I thinking!
I've got nothing against being a better person. I want to be one myself. And yes, even "goal-lessness" is a kind of goal...
I get the impression you didn't check out the links? Your choice, of course.
I initially suggested them in light of your frequently expressed interest in the difference between "objectless meditation" and other forms of meditation. I believe they'd help clarify why some of us find it a useful way of becoming better person.
We'll all do what we think is best and I wish you well - I'm not trying to convert you. Any conclusions I've reached about this meditation business are firmly provisional and the questions you pose about it all are often the questions I ask myself.
I'm still interested to know what you think of the links...If you fancy.
And Justin - you've made a lot of assumptions about why I suggested the links. I expect more from you. You badly misunderstand my motives: "...conforms with someone else's spiritual doctrines?" Is that the impression you've gained of what I'm about, from my posts? One of us needs to do better. I was simply hoping to clarify an aspect of what seems to be an interesting ongoing conversation between practitioners of different types of meditation. Oh well.
Hey 108, I really did appreciate your comment, and yes--it was a little bit of a condescending tone the way I read it. But I didn't feel overly defensive in writing what I wrote, more that it gave me a chance to clarify why I feel the way I do, and do what I do.
By the way, just because it sounded condescending to me, doesnt at all mean you intended it as such. I get that.
I will check those links, sorry for not doing so before responding. My response was more to the sentiment in your last comment then the idea of shikantaza.
Points taken, G. Like I said - I blame myself ;)
Hopefully the video and the article will help clarify why I made the 'trying to be a better person' comment. Still, it wasn't a good idea.
Hey 108--
I read that article By Mike L. Good article. I don't fully agree with his take on things--or rather--his take may reflect issues with people translating mindfulness or understanding Buddhism or Dogen...but those problems are not my problem.
In terms of mindfulness being two moons--this all comes down to what you believe is a state or a focus for your meditation. I don't really subscribe to the "dropping body/mind" attitude. Firstly, the term or phrase has little meaning for me.
The times in my life where I have fully immersed myself in some activity do not hold special meaning for me. And I don't hold that state of things as being possibly permanent--how could it be--nor something worth trying to attain on a more frequent basis.
For me, there is a tension and a thread between my mind, my body, my intellect, my feelings, emotions, and actions. This thread is something I play with in order to understand or learn about my life and to act more in accordance with what seems to be right.
My practice may in fact divide things in two. So what? I am not a nondualist. I do not subscribe to the notion that only nondual experience is relevant or higher. I do not find that one moon is somehow better than two moons.
Being relaxed and being present means something different to me. I know it when I experience it. In that place I am thinking sometimes, I am talking, eating, maybe even shitting. Sometimes I may be utterly absorbed in a state where mind and body temporarily drop off. But whatever the case, my practice runs throughout all of these states of life and of mind, elevating none.
My only attempt is to be present, which means that the part of me that can seemingly drift off and forget that life is even happening, is made to stick around at the table and be there instead of somewhere else.
"I do not subscribe to the notion that only nondual experience is relevant or higher. I do not find that one moon is somehow better than two moons."
I'm certainly not aiming to be a one-moon kinda guy coz that's the higher, zen thing to aspire to be. But I do have a suspicion - informed by some subjective experience - that it might be a happier, more effective way to be.
I understand Mike's point like this: trying to attain self-improvement by monitoring our behaviour, whether in meditation or everyday activities, is not a bad or lesser thing to do, but it's certainly not the only way to be a better, happier person; it may not be the most effective.
I find that shikantaza offers a unique opportunity to relinquish (a kind of) conscious, proactive control and allow...whatever, while still being (I guess the word is) alert. No other activity I can think of affords me that opportunity - in its simplest form. And, surprisingly (?), I've found that giving up, letting go, 'dropping off' in that way reveals, or releases, or realises something very useful that makes me feel better, happier, more balanced. I feel much better about life since I've started doing it. (And I'm glad to hear your practice is working for you too. Perhaps there something in it after all?)
But we each have different experiences, different ways of dealing with those experiences, and different goals. For sure, there's no right or wrong about it. So, as I've often written (Justin!): 'if it's working for you, then carry on'. Much of the hoo-ha - such as there is - about the differences between different meditation techniques may not amount to very much worth fussing about.
Now tell me what you thought of the video clip :P
"Much of the hoo-ha - such as there is - about the differences between different meditation techniques may not amount to very much worth fussing about."
I feel that way. All rivers lead to the ocean etc etc
I will check the video clip later and get back to ya--thanks for the interesting feedback 108!
"And Justin - you've made a lot of assumptions about why I suggested the links. I expect more from you. You badly misunderstand my motives: "...conforms with someone else's spiritual doctrines?" Is that the impression you've gained of what I'm about, from my posts? One of us needs to do better. I was simply hoping to clarify an aspect of what seems to be an interesting ongoing conversation between practitioners of different types of meditation. Oh well. "
Not at all. To be honest I had no idea you even made the comment. I didn't read Gniz' last post at all or the comments that followed it. But it's a idea that comes up again and again in Zen circles - it's a cliche really. That is what I was responding to.
Oh I see. Hmm. Still...
Your use of the phrase "someone else's spiritual doctrines" and your observation "not (or pretending not) having any motivations' to be unrealistic and nonsensical" still indicate to me assumptions about what Soto Zennies believe which may be founded more on issues you have with the shortcomings of forms of meditation you distinguish from your own than with the actual situation. Just maybe...Just my conjectural assumption.
I'm not here to defend "Soto Zen" or "Zen circles", but I wonder just how many shikantaza guys and gals really insist they have no motivation at all. There's 'motivation' and there's 'motivation'. Clearly you have to be motivated to do the thing in the first place. What fool would say otherwise? But to say the intention is to sit without intention is a fair way to describe what the practice is about. It may sound paradoxical or even hypocritical but it's not - it's the best you can do with words.
I know your a moderator at Zen Forum International; who are these people who deny any intention or motivation? I'm a member. Give me their names. I'll sort em out (that is if you're unavailable).
In case anyone's paying close attention to what I've written (JK), I want to clarify something I posted earlier:
Much of the hoo-ha - such as there is - about the differences between different meditation techniques may not amount to very much worth fussing about...Because the differences are just the differences between people.
That's closer to what I think. I think.
Am using my phone to post and can't see the comments above to review/respond the way I would like...
zen is a ripening removing thought when front and center is distractive.
sitting zazen shikantaza lets thought be seen/experienced for what it is
Giving the mind something is a kindness like giving a chain smoker a stick of gum when in the movie theatre, something the mind can use: a pacifier posture, breath a koan....
It isn't so much rivers no matter how small arrive at the ocean as much as the ocean refuses nothing.
The sun refuses nothing
Rain does not pick and choose
There is energy but no effort expended
sorry gotta go now
it is not so much 'getting out of it what you put into it' as much as 'letting settle out of it what you put into that you had no need to 'put in to' in the first place'
Re-reading our conversation, Gniz, I had some further thoughts about 'trying to be better'. At the risk of flogging a tired horse...
"Better" or "worse" is not, of course, the way things are. It's a comparative judgement we make, extrapolated from our memories of the past and projected onto our hopes and fears for the future. It's a delusion. It makes trouble for us....but it's also an inevitable and very useful motivator for the very many creative and essential things we do. Nevertheless, things are always just as they are, and that's that.
Trying to be better. Trying to be present. Apparently we're both hoping to be those things and motivated by that hope. But, the way I see and have experienced it, trying - whether trying to be mindful/present or trying to follow/notice the breath, adds another layer, another bunch of stuff to be concerned with; to monitor, to assess, to judge; to achieve or fall short of. That strikes me as more likely to compound the problem of finding a way to become more natural, relaxed/balanced, content than to solve it. Just sitting is an exercise in accepting our selves and our circumstances, not an attempt to improve them.
So in that sense, Shikantaza is not a way to become a better person, but a way of accepting things as they are. The result, hopefully, (and yeah, ironically) is that we become happier, more effective people; we and the world become "better."
Of course, my characterisation of what happens when you make your meditative efforts to be present by being aware of your breath may bear little relation to what actually goes on. I am making my own efforts - to let go. But the fact that we're both making efforts doesn't (necessarily) mean that what we're doing is the same thing, or has the same results (rivers - ocean). I think making an effort to let go/be without intention might have very different results to making an effort to stay present. I'll never know, because I can only do what I do and you likewise. Comparing notes may merely confirm Kodo Sawaki's comment that you can't exchange even a single fart with the next guy.
I love reading well-intentioned guys trying to sort it all out. That's all I want to say.
Hi Anon 108. Is there any difference between us "comparing notes" or you reading the shobogenzo?
For the record, I haven't read the shobogenzo for many months, Gniz. When I read, which I've never done a lot of and always sporadically, it's Sanskrit that provides the material these days - maybe a half-hour lately per day (I'm working through the Hitopadesha animal fables at the moment, not religious/philosophical stuff).
Some forms of art, music and literature - I include SBGZ in literature - I find inspirational, uplifting. Some artists express aspects of the human condition in a way that reassures me I'm not alone in the Universe, or that even if I am, others are too. And I get I buzz, an emotional high, from good music and literature.
I rarely find any comments I read on on blogs inspirational - I don't hear blog comments as art. Nothing personal ;) I hear them much the same way as I hear a conversation with a friend. And those conversations have rarely, if ever, inspired me. (I think that's true). By having a conversation I hear myself think, and hear the thoughts of others come back at me - I have a need to express myself; talking (like this) fulfils that need, and I learn something about myself from what comes out of me and how it impacts others.
So I think "comparing notes" like this and enjoying literature, art or music are different processes with different functions and results. For me.
Does that in any way address what you were getting at?
There again, I do get a nice "Oh, yeah, I see...that makes sense. Thanks for pointing that out" feeling from reading philosophical texts (that make sense) - and I guess SBGZ is an example of philosophical literature. And yes it's true that I sometimes get that from having conversations in RL or on the net. Moments of insight, perhaps they're called. So that could be a similarity.
And...
Learning things about myself through conversation is often an uneasy, unsettling experience. Reading a good book or hearing good music is always pleasant. So that's a difference.
Good question, G!
At the end of the day, I would argue that even if you appreciate something as art, if you read a religious or philosophical text by Dogen you are indeed essentially "comparing notes" with Dogen. You are reading his thoughts and experiences relating to Buddhism and Zazen.
If our conversations are useless because comparing notes is useless, then I would say that reading Dogen is no different except he wrote stuff on parchment many years ago, instead of on a blog today.
That's what I thought you might be implying (you first paragraph).
I didn't say having a conversation/comparing notes is useless at all...
Sure, I'm subjectively interpreting what Dogen is saying; you could call that "comparing notes". But I can't ask Dogen a question and get a response. Dogen is indeed dead. You're not. So the process is very different.
My contact with Dogen, although I might revisit it, stops with me. Our conversation is two-way, ongoing and dynamic. For the reasons I gave, reading Dogen and comparing notes with you feels like different things, in most respects.
...By "Comparing notes may merely confirm Kodo Sawaki's comment that you can't exchange even a single fart with the next guy" I meant that there comes a point when...that one's own real experience can't be shared. That doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile to chew the fat with other people.
My fear is that Nothing can be shared or fully communicated. Chewing the fat is fine but without real communication it is only a masturbatory action. Motivation is everything. If you truly want to understand someone else, that is huge. If you only want someone to appreciate your ideas, that is nothing. Or so I think on November 20, 2010 10:25 PM
Seems a little harsh, anon. Nothing wrong with enjoying your self. Isn't that the motivation for all our efforts?
Conveniently, our efforts to enjoy our own selves tend to be mutually beneficial...disturbed pathologies aside. It makes (most of) us feel better to 'do good' for others. Something to do with empathy and the 'selfish gene'?
Re-considering what you wrote, anon...
I think we can enjoy ourselves/help ourselves (and so others?) more if we make a genuine effort to truly listen to what others are sincerely trying to tell us about themselves. It isn't easy to do, but it can happen. That can be called communication, I think.
I dunno. I can play with words all day and make them fit!
Hi 108.. Maybe you feel I was referring negatively to something you said. I was not. What I meant to communicate was my fear that Sawaki was totally correct in his comment about exchanging anything. Without a sincere attempt at communication, chewing the fat, blogging, even art all become meaningless acts which while maybe being very satisfying on some personal level actually only inhibit intimacy.
No worries, anon - I didn't at all take your comment as directed negatively at something I'd said.
By "Seems a little harsh..." I only meant that Sawaki's fart comment, interpreted as "Nothing can be shared..." was maybe a little harsh on us potential communicators, and that your own comment, "If you only want someone to appreciate your ideas, that is nothing" was a little harsh on seemingly 'selfish' motives. I should have been clearer.
I do understand your point...I believe :)
(And the removed posts weren't regretted rants. Just me fussing over a comma here and there ;))
It seems very difficult to put one's self image aside and open up and be completely truthful. It is easier to put up a front and leave an escape route. It is for me anyway. I think this is very evident on Brad's blog day in and day out. Is this related to a fear of death? You have to let go of an idea of self to really get 'yourself' across to other people. Otherwise self becomes a construct to avoid intimacy. I think Buddhism is about deep sincerity which is a real problem for us anons. :)
I'm thinking of all the hard work some people do in practice just to continually slip up (trolling) maybe only because they are unaccountable in this form (blog) because of their anonymity. I have this issue too. :)
What you say is true for me too, anon.
We can only do our best.
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